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Coppertone Girl
Guest
scottmalinowski, BRAVO!!!!
Don't get me wrong, we should all be informed, but your last paragraph SAYS IT ALL!
Don't get me wrong, we should all be informed, but your last paragraph SAYS IT ALL!
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Richsap
Guest
I would hazard a guess that $1,275.00 per week is, by Carnival's reckoning, at or a little more than the average cruise passenger would be expected to shell out during a week's cruise, plus maybe some compensatable factors added in. Those folks on board are eating the same type of food that is served during cruises... no military-type chow here. As mentioned in an earlier post, Carnival also has to contend with the cost of compensating those who lost their vacations and the unmeasurable costs of lost future business because of their decision to participate in this. If any mistake was made, I would think it was in specifying that almost the full spectrum of services when along with the temporary shelter of the ship. Overall, I don't think this was a bad decision on anybody's part. Who could predict that the ships would be underutilized? How long would it have taken to get things moving had the government (FEMA) been forced to go through the usual financial analysis and bidding process? (HINT: Think months, not days or weeks).
To make an omlette, you've got to break a few eggs, as I was once told. This was and continues for some to be an emergency situation, and a learning experience for us as a nation. Had this deal not been struck, I'm sure we'd be hearing stories about how FEMA failed in providing emergency shelter for victims and/or recovery workers or how the cruise lines were selfish, uncaring and/or asking for too much money.
To make an omlette, you've got to break a few eggs, as I was once told. This was and continues for some to be an emergency situation, and a learning experience for us as a nation. Had this deal not been struck, I'm sure we'd be hearing stories about how FEMA failed in providing emergency shelter for victims and/or recovery workers or how the cruise lines were selfish, uncaring and/or asking for too much money.
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BigDaddtBooda
Guest
Richsap, you bring up some good points. If this were a normal business deal, in a normal climate, I would say to Carnival - "Congratulations". Unfortunately, it is far from normal in any sense.
As far as Fema goes, clearly the director was a totally incompetent political appointee. This patronage is firmly entrenched in our government, and treacherous as it is, it will never go away as long as humans are in charge.
"Out of the crooked tree of humanity, no straight thing can ever be made." - Immanuel Kant
That may be true, but that should not keep us from recognizing and condemning those crooked things.
Most of us don't know this, but Greece offered free ships. Why FEMA did not accept this is beyond me. The point was made that it was not possible to predict that the evacuees would not want to avail themselves of free quarters on cruise ships that many people can't wait to board. As to why not, well, words fail me.
All these are peripheal issues to the one I was trying to make. to wit: Any person or organization who takes advantage of a national tragedy to line it's pockets is reprehensible. As was pointed out previously, many other corporatons have made large donations. No one is asking Carnival to go broke on such a deal. but it does seem that a company that avoids approximately $475.000.000 in taxes every year might want to give just a little back to those who enable it's massive profits. Maybe I'm just naive, or from an older generation.
During the aftermath of the sinking of the Indianapolis, after 4 days in the water under broiling sun, having lost to thirst, sharks, and exhaustion most of their shipmates, the survivors were rescued. A doctor gave a group of 14 men, dying of thirst, some water, and asked them not to drink more than one ounce. Not ONE of the men took more than his share.
The issue here is profit above conscience, and those who can only see one side or the other, well, that's the trend in our society.
As far as Fema goes, clearly the director was a totally incompetent political appointee. This patronage is firmly entrenched in our government, and treacherous as it is, it will never go away as long as humans are in charge.
"Out of the crooked tree of humanity, no straight thing can ever be made." - Immanuel Kant
That may be true, but that should not keep us from recognizing and condemning those crooked things.
Most of us don't know this, but Greece offered free ships. Why FEMA did not accept this is beyond me. The point was made that it was not possible to predict that the evacuees would not want to avail themselves of free quarters on cruise ships that many people can't wait to board. As to why not, well, words fail me.
All these are peripheal issues to the one I was trying to make. to wit: Any person or organization who takes advantage of a national tragedy to line it's pockets is reprehensible. As was pointed out previously, many other corporatons have made large donations. No one is asking Carnival to go broke on such a deal. but it does seem that a company that avoids approximately $475.000.000 in taxes every year might want to give just a little back to those who enable it's massive profits. Maybe I'm just naive, or from an older generation.
During the aftermath of the sinking of the Indianapolis, after 4 days in the water under broiling sun, having lost to thirst, sharks, and exhaustion most of their shipmates, the survivors were rescued. A doctor gave a group of 14 men, dying of thirst, some water, and asked them not to drink more than one ounce. Not ONE of the men took more than his share.
The issue here is profit above conscience, and those who can only see one side or the other, well, that's the trend in our society.
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Cruzman
Guest
A little update, according to the local newspaper, there are now over 1100 evacuees aboard the Holiday docked in Mobile. The Sensation and Ecstasy are also at about 75% capacity according to the story. As far as Carnival getting a sweetheart deal, the reality is in the details. Cruiseline profits do not come from just passenger fares. There is revenue from casinos, specialty restaurants, art auction commisions, shore excursion commisions, bar revenues, revenues from onboard shop purchases, etc. And we musn't forget that the tips that we all offer on a cruise must be made up somewhere because no tips are currently forthcoming. I think that an in depth analysis would support the notion that Carnival is simply breaking even on this deal. One might argue that under the circumstances, Carnival should be willing to take a loss, but I suspect that most of their stockholders would disagree. How much money has Carnival donated to disaster relief? I don't know the answer to that question, but it does make me curious.
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scottmalinowski
Guest
The issue here is profit above conscience, and those who can only see one side or the other, well, that's the trend in our society.
Bigdaddt,
You think you know our society so well than why are you so naive. Dont you understand how the world really works. I said before that I am sure Carnival is making some money on the situation, but for the love of god I am sure they are not the only people that are making some sort of money on the unfortunate situation. You want to talk about hose crooked things. What are you talking about. Whats crooked about it. How can you expect a company to give 1.5 billion dollars worth of cruise ships and not get any type of compensation. Thats ridiculous to say. I dont know you, or where you live. Why dont you give up your house, and your home so people from New Orleans can live there. You can move to a hotel. Give up your car and let someone use it. Give your paychecks to them. Let them spend it the way they want. The moral is you wouldnt, but I do not think that anyone would criticize you for being "crooked". It works the same way in business. Its the same thing.
Why wouldnt the us take free ships from greece? Hmmm...I wonder why. Do you actually think that they were free. You cant actually think that. It would cost the us something in the future. You can bet on that.
I cant believe that you think what Carnival is doing is reprehensible. Thats a joke. If you think that than you not doing what I mentioned earlier is reprehensible as well. Using your criteria. How do you know what Carnival has donated and what they havent. You have no idea for sure. No one knows for sure what anyone has donated. I know for a fact reading from an article that Mickey Arison the president and ceo of Carnival donated a million dollars fro his own pocket to the relief fund. I read it in an article.
It just seems like you are an educated with passion and thats a great thing to have, but you are not using it the right way. Direct towards something with substance. The world needs more of that. You are being silly.
Bigdaddt,
You think you know our society so well than why are you so naive. Dont you understand how the world really works. I said before that I am sure Carnival is making some money on the situation, but for the love of god I am sure they are not the only people that are making some sort of money on the unfortunate situation. You want to talk about hose crooked things. What are you talking about. Whats crooked about it. How can you expect a company to give 1.5 billion dollars worth of cruise ships and not get any type of compensation. Thats ridiculous to say. I dont know you, or where you live. Why dont you give up your house, and your home so people from New Orleans can live there. You can move to a hotel. Give up your car and let someone use it. Give your paychecks to them. Let them spend it the way they want. The moral is you wouldnt, but I do not think that anyone would criticize you for being "crooked". It works the same way in business. Its the same thing.
Why wouldnt the us take free ships from greece? Hmmm...I wonder why. Do you actually think that they were free. You cant actually think that. It would cost the us something in the future. You can bet on that.
I cant believe that you think what Carnival is doing is reprehensible. Thats a joke. If you think that than you not doing what I mentioned earlier is reprehensible as well. Using your criteria. How do you know what Carnival has donated and what they havent. You have no idea for sure. No one knows for sure what anyone has donated. I know for a fact reading from an article that Mickey Arison the president and ceo of Carnival donated a million dollars fro his own pocket to the relief fund. I read it in an article.
It just seems like you are an educated with passion and thats a great thing to have, but you are not using it the right way. Direct towards something with substance. The world needs more of that. You are being silly.
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lizardstew
Guest
Woah....everyone is entitled to their own opinions, aren't they? Even if we don't agree...that's what makes the world (and especially this country) go 'round. There is no reason to resort to name-calling here!!!
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scottmalinowski
Guest
What name calling. I called them silly, and naive. Thats not name calling. I have just as much right to be passionate about something as they did. I have no problems with opinions, but if you are going to strongly criticize something than I have the right to strongly criticize something as well.
I cant stand reading, hearing people being like this. I guess I look at the world differently than some people. The world can use more passionate people but use it towards something of substance. To come out and rant and complain to Carnival is silly. I am sorry it is. To outright criticize them for this is even sillier. Then to say, no to boldly state, you are refunding your cruise because of this is...well...I shouldnt say it. I will get criticized then.
I knew someone would say I was wrong or shouldnt say what I said, because its the way the world works, but think about one thing. Why is my passion wrong but theres is ok. Is there a huge difference if its towards me, or bigdaddt, or Carnival. Passion is passion. Why is it different?
I cant stand reading, hearing people being like this. I guess I look at the world differently than some people. The world can use more passionate people but use it towards something of substance. To come out and rant and complain to Carnival is silly. I am sorry it is. To outright criticize them for this is even sillier. Then to say, no to boldly state, you are refunding your cruise because of this is...well...I shouldnt say it. I will get criticized then.
I knew someone would say I was wrong or shouldnt say what I said, because its the way the world works, but think about one thing. Why is my passion wrong but theres is ok. Is there a huge difference if its towards me, or bigdaddt, or Carnival. Passion is passion. Why is it different?
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randk
Guest
scottmalinowski,
i dont agree with you nor do you agree with me on other parts of this thread. But with the last one, I do agree with you. it does seem as long as you are going to call something in this courntry crooked or wrong or the people that than you can be passionate, bold and strong in your words. But, if you are defending those same things, you must be meek, reserved, and soft. Why? I have no idea nor do I care to understand. If the defenders of this Nation now or in the past had taken that apprach, we would not be here today discussing this nor other things. So, Sir, please continue to be passionate, strong, and bold in your defense of your thoughts and words, allow others the same right, and please remember though no name calling, you might hurt the silly few out there following this thread. LOL
i dont agree with you nor do you agree with me on other parts of this thread. But with the last one, I do agree with you. it does seem as long as you are going to call something in this courntry crooked or wrong or the people that than you can be passionate, bold and strong in your words. But, if you are defending those same things, you must be meek, reserved, and soft. Why? I have no idea nor do I care to understand. If the defenders of this Nation now or in the past had taken that apprach, we would not be here today discussing this nor other things. So, Sir, please continue to be passionate, strong, and bold in your defense of your thoughts and words, allow others the same right, and please remember though no name calling, you might hurt the silly few out there following this thread. LOL
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lizardstew
Guest
I think you may have taken my post for a little more than it was. I wasn't knocking your passion in any way and I'm not sure where you got that notion from. =dunno
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Ruffy
Guest
Having gone through 4 hurricanes last year, I think the biggest issue is FEMA, what a joke. They take weeks to get into full swing, don't have emergency supplies, no plans and dump thier funds like a typical government entity, in all the wrong places. Whoever made this deal with Carnival should have made contingancies for a shorter contract and thought through all the ramifications of the deal, they certainly had the time. Carnival won the contract not because of the lowest price but because they offered all the services FEMA required. Does anyone know if Carnival is making corporate donations like other companies? I checked, Carnival has a campaign going with it's emplyees to raise funds for the Red Cross and is matching every penny raised. Some companies aren't even doing that. When we got hit in Florida last year, we didn't get the TV coverage like Katrina. We did get people coming here from all around the country to help, power companies, roofers, carpenters etc. none of them worked for free, none of them gave a discount. As a matter of fact the prices for all the rebuildeing where higher than normal to cover the cost of housing all the workers. So don't blame one company, Carnival, for doing what companys do. But blame the government for not doing what it is suppossed to do. As good citizens find out which elected officials are responsable for good or bad and vote accordingly, this is America!
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BigDaddtBooda
Guest
Excellent rebuts. Scott seems to be emotionally involved, can't imagine why. I never respond to personal attacks in a debate, it doesn't seem constructive.
I did not do any research to see if Carnival had any company collection efforts. Neither did I check the status of the CEO's personal donations. I stand corrected.
I know this deal happened in a very time-constrained manner. I think I'll cut Carnival some slack on this deal, and conclude that my accusations are not proven. If the evacuees filled the ships as was expected, I think everone would have been happy.
Therefore I withdraw my statement, and I will not conduct my personal boycott.
Thank you for all the constructive comments and facts. God bless America.
I did not do any research to see if Carnival had any company collection efforts. Neither did I check the status of the CEO's personal donations. I stand corrected.
I know this deal happened in a very time-constrained manner. I think I'll cut Carnival some slack on this deal, and conclude that my accusations are not proven. If the evacuees filled the ships as was expected, I think everone would have been happy.
Therefore I withdraw my statement, and I will not conduct my personal boycott.
Thank you for all the constructive comments and facts. God bless America.
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bOB
Guest
There is no doubt that this type of issue brings out the compassion in people which can
lead to sometimes heated expression of opinions. Nothing wrong with this, but lets make
sure we keep in with in the spirit of the forum guidelines.
----Nothing personal, nothing political and nothing vulgar will keep me happy----
Past that, debate it to your hearts content.
Thanks for your co-operation.
Cruise @ddicts
lead to sometimes heated expression of opinions. Nothing wrong with this, but lets make
sure we keep in with in the spirit of the forum guidelines.
----Nothing personal, nothing political and nothing vulgar will keep me happy----
Past that, debate it to your hearts content.
Thanks for your co-operation.
Cruise @ddicts
